黑人學生如何參與領導 1968 年哥倫比亞大學抗議，反對軍國主義和種族主義（How Black Students Helped Lead the 1968 Columbia U. Strike Against Militarism & Racism）

導言：1968年春天，紐約哥倫比亞大學的學生發(fā)現(xiàn)該校與美國國防分析研究所（IDA）關系甚密，間接卷入越南戰(zhàn)爭，加之哥倫比亞大學校方計劃在晨邊公園新建一個專為黑人學生出入而設計一個便門的體育館，學生對校方的種族主義政策強烈不滿，越戰(zhàn)與種族主義催生了這場轟轟烈烈的學生運動。

4月23日，哥倫比亞大學的數(shù)百名學生在校園內發(fā)起了抗議。他們占領了五棟大樓，包括位于洛圖書館的校長辦公室，然后將自己封鎖在大樓內數(shù)天。“1968年紐約哥倫比亞大學學生抗議運動”導致了紐約市歷史上最大規(guī)模的逮捕——4月30日，有700多人被捕。這也引發(fā)了美國各地的學生抗議。本訪談將回顧這一關鍵時刻。

TOPICS:Student Protests, Students, Vietnam, Military Industrial Complex, African-American History, Civil Rights, 1968,

GUESTS嘉賓

Raymond Brown

former leader of the Student Afro-American Society at Columbia University. He is now a criminal defense lawyer who also practices international human rights law.

雷蒙德-布朗

哥倫比亞大學非裔美國人學生協(xié)會前領導人。他現(xiàn)在是一名刑事辯護律師，同時也從事國際人權法方面的工作。

Nancy Biberman

student at Barnard College at the time of the 1968 student strike and a former member of Students for Democratic Society. She is now a lawyer working in community development and founder of the Women’s Housing and Economic Development Corporation in the Bronx.

南希-比伯曼

1968 年學生罷課事件發(fā)生時巴納德學院的學生，也是學生民主協(xié)會的前成員。她現(xiàn)在是一名從事社區(qū)發(fā)展工作的律師，也是布朗克斯區(qū)婦女住房和經濟發(fā)展公司的創(chuàng)始人。

Mark Rudd

chair of the Columbia University chapter of Students for a Democratic Society during the student strike of 1968. He was elected national secretary in 1969 and was the last to hold the position.

馬克-魯?shù)?/p>

1968 年學生罷課期間，擔任哥倫比亞大學學生爭取民主社會分會主席。他于 1969 年當選為全國秘書，是最后一位擔任此職的人。

Paul Cronin

editor of the book?A Time to Stir: Columbia ’68. He has also made a 7-hour documentary about Columbia ’68. He teaches at the School of Visual Arts in New York.

保羅-克羅寧

《A Time to Stir: Columbia '68》一書的編輯。他還制作了一部長達 7 小時的關于哥倫比亞大學 68 年的紀錄片。他在紐約視覺藝術學院任教。

Transcript文字稿

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

這是一份緊急記錄稿。副本可能不是最終版本。

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JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?Fifty years ago today, on April 23rd, 1968, hundreds of students at Columbia University in New York revolted—started a revolt on campus. Students went on strike. They occupied five buildings, including the president’s office in Low Library. They barricaded themselves inside the buildings for days. They were protesting Columbia’s ties to military research and plans to build a new gymnasium in a public park in Harlem. The protests began less than three weeks after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The 1968 Columbia uprising led to one of the largest mass arrests in New York City history, as more than 700 people were arrested on April 30th. It also inspired student protests across the country.

胡安-岡薩雷斯：50年前的今天，1968年4月23日，紐約哥倫比亞大學的數(shù)百名學生在校園內發(fā)動了一場叛亂。學生們舉行了罷課。他們占領了五棟大樓，包括位于低區(qū)圖書館的校長辦公室。他們把自己堵在樓里好幾天。他們抗議哥倫比亞大學與軍事研究的關系，以及在哈萊姆區(qū)的一個公共公園修建新體育館的計劃。1968 年的哥倫比亞大學起義是紐約市歷史上規(guī)模最大的大規(guī)模逮捕行動之一，4 月 30 日有 700 多人被捕。它還激發(fā)了全國各地的學生抗議活動。

Today we spend the hour looking back at this pivotal moment. Several of the student organizers are joining us in a minute. As one of them writes today in an?op-ed?in?The New York Times, quote, “In popular memory, the Columbia protests were a high point of the campus movement against the Vietnam War, and a mile marker in its radicalization. But this history, which privileges the actions and concerns of white students like myself, is incomplete, and it misrepresents what made the protests so powerful—the leadership of the black students.” Those are the words of Mark Rudd, who will join us in a minute. We’ll also speak with Raymond Brown, former leader of the Student Afro-American Society, and with Nancy Biberman, who, like Rudd, was a member of Students for a Democratic Society, or?SDS. But first we begin with excerpts from the documentary?Columbia Revolt?by Third World Newsreel.

今天，我們將用一小時的時間回顧這一關鍵時刻。幾位學生組織者將在一分鐘后加入我們。他們中的一位今天在《紐約時報》的專欄文章中寫道："在大眾的記憶中，哥倫比亞大學的抗議活動是校園反越戰(zhàn)運動的高潮，也是其激進化的里程碑。但這段歷史偏重于像我這樣的白人學生的行動和關注，是不完整的，它歪曲了使抗議活動如此強大的原因--黑人學生的領導力。馬克-魯?shù)拢∕ark Rudd）如是說。我們還將采訪非裔美國人學生會前領導人雷蒙德-布朗（Raymond Brown）和南希-比伯曼（Nancy Biberman），她和陸克文一樣，也是學生民主社會黨（SDS）的成員。首先，我們將從 "第三世界新聞片 "拍攝的紀錄片《哥倫比亞叛亂》中摘錄一些片段。

STUDENT?ORGANIZER?1:?We now demand—we no longer ask—a say in decisions that affect our lives. We call on all students, faculty, staff and workers of the university to support our strike. We ask that all students and faculty not meet or have classes inside buildings. We have taken the power away from an irresponsible and illegitimate administration. We have taken power away from a board of self-perpetuating businessmen who call themselves trustees of this university. We’re demanding an end to the construction of the gymnasium, a gymnasium being built against the will of the people of the community of Harlem, a decision that was made unilaterally by powers of the university without consultation of people whose lives it affects. We are no longer asking, but demanding, an end to all affiliation and ties with the Institute for Defense Analysis, a Department Department venture that collaborates the university into studies of kill and overkill that has resulted in the slaughter and maiming of thousands of Vietnamese and Americans.

學生組織者 1： 我們現(xiàn)在要求--我們不再要求--在影響我們生活的決策中擁有發(fā)言權。我們呼吁全校學生、教職員工支持我們的罷工。我們要求所有師生不要在教學樓內集會或上課。我們從不負責任、不合法的行政部門手中奪走了權力。我們從自稱為大學托管人的自我膨脹的商人董事會手中奪走了權力。我們要求停止修建體育館，這座體育館的修建違背了哈萊姆社區(qū)居民的意愿，是大學權力機構在沒有征求生活受到影響的居民意見的情況下單方面做出的決定。我們不再要求，而是要求結束與國防分析研究所的所有附屬關系和聯(lián)系，該研究所是一個與大學合作進行殺戮和過度殺戮研究的部門，導致成千上萬的越南人和美國人被屠殺和致殘。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?Students at Columbia moved to take over buildings despite warnings from some campus officials.

哥倫比亞大學的學生不顧一些校方官員的警告，開始占領教學樓。

STUDENT?ORGANIZER?2:?In order to show the solidarity of people with six strike leaders who they had tried to suspend, they decided to take Hamilton once again.

CAMPUS?OFFICIAL:?You are hereby directed to clear out of this building. I’ll give you further instructions if this building is not cleared out within the next 10 minutes.

STRIKE?LEADER:?I’m asking how many of you here are willing now to stay with me, sit-in here, until…

學生組織者2： 他們決定再次占領漢密爾頓。

校園官員：特此指示你們離開這棟樓。如果10分鐘內還未清空，我將向你們下達進一步指示。

罷工領袖：我想問一下，你們當中有多少人現(xiàn)在愿意和我在一起，在這里靜坐，直到......

STUDENT?ORGANIZER?3:?After three votes, a majority decided to stay.

STUDENTS:?Strike! Strike! Strike! Strike! Strike! Strike!

CAMPUS?OFFICIAL:?If you do not choose to leave this building, I have to inform you that we have no alternative but to call the police, and each student who is arrested will be immediately suspended.

學生組織者 3：經過三次投票，大多數(shù)人決定留下來。

學生：罷工！罷工！罷工！罷工！罷工！罷工！罷工！

校園官員：如果你們不選擇離開這棟樓，我必須通知你們，我們別無選擇，只能報警，每個被捕的學生都將被立即停學。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?The students then set up barricades inside the administration building.

學生們隨后在行政樓內設置了路障。

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STUDENT?ORGANIZER?4:?The first day in Math, we set up a defense committee, which took care of putting up the barricades. We decided what our policy would be toward police, toward jocks. We soaped some of the stairs. We taped the windows. We emptied bookcases and put them up in front of the windows in case tear gas canisters did get through the tape.

學生組織者 4：第一天上數(shù)學課時，我們成立了一個保衛(wèi)委員會，負責設置路障。我們決定了對警察和運動員的政策。我們給一些樓梯抹了肥皂。我們用膠帶封住窗戶 我們把書柜搬空，放在窗前，以防催淚彈穿過膠帶。

STUDENT?ORGANIZER?5:?And it hung up a lot of people when there would be a little scratch or mar on one of the marble-top desks or something. And the second time we built barricades, these hang-ups disappeared, and we had decided that barricades were necessary politically and strategically, and anything went in making strong and, this time, permanent-type barricades.

學生組織者 5：每當大理石桌面上出現(xiàn)一點劃痕或疤痕什么的，很多人都會被嚇到。第二次我們修建路障時，這些困擾就消失了，我們認為在政治上和戰(zhàn)略上都有必要修建路障，而且這次要修建的是堅固的永久性路障。

STUDENT?ORGANIZER?6:?Defense is all taken care of. Security is a problem, letting people in and out of the buildings. Watches—we need people to watch the windows every night.

學生組織者 6：防御問題都解決了。安全是個問題，讓人們進出大樓。監(jiān)視--我們需要有人每晚監(jiān)視窗戶。

STUDENT?ORGANIZER?7:?We had a walkie-talkie setup, citizens’ band walkie-talkies, plus there were telephone communications to every building, which the university tapped. We had three mimeographs at work constantly, and there were people who did nothing during the strike but relay to the mimeograph machine. And there was a big sign on the wall, a quote from somebody in Berkeley, who says five students and a mimeograph machine can do more harm to a university than an army.

學生組織者 7：我們有一個對講機裝置，公民樂隊的對講機，另外還有與每棟樓的電話通訊，大學監(jiān)聽了這些電話。我們有三臺油印機在不停地工作，有人在罷工期間什么也不做，只是在油印機旁轉播。墻上掛著一個大牌子 引用了伯克利某人的一句話 他說五個學生和一臺油印機 對一所大學造成的傷害 比一支軍隊還大

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AMY?GOODMAN:?That’s an excerpt of?Columbia Revolt, Third World Newsreel. When we come back from break, we’ll be joined by four of the student activists at the time who led the strike. They’re now lawyers, working on housing rights, community activists and journalists. Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN：這是 "哥倫比亞的反抗 "的節(jié)選，第三世界新聞片。休息回來后，我們將請到當時領導罷課的四位學生活動家。他們現(xiàn)在都是律師，從事住房權利方面的工作，也是社區(qū)活動人士和記者。請繼續(xù)收看

[休息]

AMY?GOODMAN:?“Draft Morning” by The Notorious Byrd Brothers, 1968. This is?Democracy Now! The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. We’re joined now by four of the student activists involved in the Columbia strike.

In 1968, Raymond Brown was a leader of the Student Afro-American Society at Columbia, was one of the leaders of the black students who occupied Columbia University’s Hamilton Hall. He’s now a criminal defense lawyer who also practices international human rights law.

Nancy Biberman is with us. She’s here in New York. She was a student at Barnard College at the time of the '68 strike, a member of?SDS, Students for a Democratic Society, now a lawyer working in community development and founder of the Women's Housing and Economic Development Corporation in the Bronx.

Joining us from Albuquerque, New Mexico, Mark Rudd. He was chairman of the Columbia University chapter of?SDS?during the student strike of April 1968, elected national secretary in 1969 and was the last to hold that position.

And we’re joined by Paul Cronin, editor of the new book?A Time to Stir: Columbia ’68. Paul Cronin made a 7-hour documentary about Columbia ’68. He teaches at the School of Visual Arts here in New York.

And?Democracy Now!?co-host Juan Gonzalez, one of the student strike leaders, as well.

Now, you were all—Raymond, Juan, Nancy, Mark—you were all there on April 23rd, 50 years ago today. Juan, why don’t you kick this off? Describe what happened that morning.

我是艾米-古德曼，我是胡安-岡薩雷斯 現(xiàn)在加入我們的是四位參與 哥倫比亞大學罷課的學生活動家

1968年，雷蒙德-布朗是哥倫比亞大學 非裔美國人學生協(xié)會的領袖 是占領哥倫比亞大學漢密爾頓大廳的 黑人學生領袖之一 他現(xiàn)在是一名刑事辯護律師，同時也從事國際人權法方面的工作。

南希-比伯曼正在接受我們的采訪。她在紐約。68年大罷工時，她是巴納德學院的一名學生，也是SDS（學生爭取民主社會組織）的成員，現(xiàn)在是一名從事社區(qū)發(fā)展工作的律師，也是布朗克斯區(qū)婦女住房和經濟發(fā)展公司的創(chuàng)始人。

從新墨西哥州阿爾伯克基市趕來的是馬克-魯?shù)拢∕ark Rudd）。在 1968 年 4 月的學生大罷工期間，他曾擔任 SDS 哥倫比亞大學分會主席，1969 年當選為全國秘書長，是最后一位擔任此職的人。

新書《騷動的時刻：68年的哥倫比亞》的編輯保羅-克羅寧（Paul Cronin）也加入了我們的行列。保羅-克羅寧（Paul Cronin）拍攝了一部長達7小時的關于哥倫比亞大學1968年的紀錄片。他在紐約視覺藝術學院任教。

還有聯(lián)合主持人胡安-岡薩雷斯，他也是學生罷工的領導者之一。

雷蒙德、胡安、南希、馬克，50年前的4月23日，你們都在現(xiàn)場。胡安，你來開場吧？描述一下那天早上發(fā)生了什么

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JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?Well, there was a major rally called by the Students for a Democratic Society, as well as the members of the Student Afro-American Society, who joined the protest, as well, basically continuing the ongoing protest against the university’s involvement in research for the Institute for Defense Analysis, a group that was doing a lot of research for the Pentagon for the Vietnam War, and against the construction of the gymnasium that Columbia was trying to build in Morningside Park. And a variety of forces came together—the?SDS?students, the?SAS?students, a lot of other folks who were involved in the community struggles around the gym. And everyone gathered at the Sundial and, initially, marched to the gym site and then came back on campus. And we all ended up in Hamilton Hall, which was the main undergraduate classroom building for the Columbia College students. And that’s when the sit-in began.

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?學生民主社會組織（Students for a Democratic Society）和非裔美國人學生協(xié)會（Student Afro-American Society）的成員也參加了抗議活動，他們基本上是在繼續(xù)抗議大學參與國防分析研究所（Institute for Defense Analysis）的研究工作，該組織為五角大樓進行了大量越戰(zhàn)研究，并反對哥倫比亞大學在莫寧塞公園（Morningside Park）修建體育館。各種力量匯聚在一起--SDS 的學生、SAS 的學生、許多其他參與體育館周圍社區(qū)斗爭的人。大家聚集在日晷廣場，起初游行到體育館所在地，然后回到校園。我們最后都來到了漢密爾頓大廳，那里是哥倫比亞大學本科生的主要教室。就在那時，靜坐示威開始了。

AMY?GOODMAN:?So, Ray Brown, describe the role of the Afro-American Society, your role. What happened that day?

那么，雷-布朗，描述一下非美協(xié)會的角色，你的角色。那天發(fā)生了什么？

RAYMOND?BROWN:?Well, the black student role has often been ignored, especially by the media.?The New York Times?managed to cover this in detail for days and never mention us. But we got a telegram from the Chinese Chairman. Somehow, the People’s Republic of China knew what the black students were doing,?New York Times?did not.

But certainly, the black students played a pivotal role, because, first of all, we were more disciplined than any other group. We determined—we were the first to determine to barricade buildings. We asked, in a manner that’s become controversial in the ensuing years, the white students to leave and grab other buildings. And we barricaded that first building.

Our role was strategically pivotal because city had just erupted weeks earlier after Dr. King’s death. There was a perception that Harlem might rise, and we did have a lot of community support. And so, the reason this lasted for seven days was because nobody wanted to arrest the black students, and, subsequently, that meant they couldn’t arrest white students. So, our role was pivotal, though ignored historically and journalistically.

黑人學生的作用經常被忽視，尤其是被媒體忽視?！都~約時報》對此事進行了長達數(shù)日的詳細報道，卻從未提及我們。但我們收到了中國官方的電報。中國知道黑人學生在做什么，而《紐約時報》卻不知道。

但可以肯定的是，黑人學生發(fā)揮了舉足輕重的作用，因為首先，我們比其他任何團體都更有紀律。我們是第一個決定封鎖建筑物的人。我們要求白人學生離開，搶占其他建筑，這種方式在隨后的幾年里引起了爭議。我們封鎖了第一棟樓。

我們的角色在戰(zhàn)略上至關重要 因為幾周前金博士逝世后，哈林區(qū)發(fā)生了大爆炸 人們認為哈林區(qū)可能會崛起 我們確實得到了很多社區(qū)的支持 因此，這場示威之所以持續(xù)了七天，是因為沒有人愿意逮捕黑人學生，而這也意味著他們不能逮捕白人學生。因此，我們的作用至關重要，盡管在歷史上和新聞界都被忽視了。

AMY?GOODMAN:?So, I want to go to a clip from the confrontation at Hamilton Hall when students first trapped acting college Dean Henry Coleman in his first-floor office. The audio was from the campus radio station,?WKCR. It’s narrated by, well, no other than Robert Siegel, class of 1969.

AMY GOODMAN：所以，我想轉到漢密爾頓大廳沖突的一個片段，當時學生們第一次將學院代理院長亨利-科爾曼（Henry Coleman）困在他一樓的辦公室里。這段音頻來自校園廣播 WKCR。解說員是1969級的羅伯特-西格爾

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ROBERT?SIEGEL:?Dean of Columbia College Henry S. Coleman confronts demonstrators in the lobby of Hamilton Hall.

DEAN?HENRY?COLEMAN:?Am I to understand then that I am not allowed to leave this building?

STUDENT:?Well, let me ask. Is he to understand that he’s not to be able to leave this building?

STUDENTS:?Yes!

哥倫比亞學院院長亨利-科爾曼（Henry S. Coleman）在漢密爾頓大廳與示威者對峙。

科爾曼：我是否可以理解為我不能離開這棟樓？

一個學生：好吧，讓我問一下。他是否明白他不能離開這棟樓？

學生們：是的！是的

AMY?GOODMAN:?So, Ray Brown, remember that?

雷-布朗，還記得嗎？

RAYMOND?BROWN:?We regarded Dean Coleman as our guest, not as a hostage. He had actually personally recruited me. Most of the black students—he was very popular among black students. He was involved in admissions. He had also reached out a lot, perhaps more than any other dean. So it was ironic that he was there. And once we had seized control of the building, we didn’t need him anymore, and we invited him to leave—also because there were a couple of black students in the law school. They said, “You ought not mention words like 'kidnapping' and 'hostage.'”

我們把迪安-科爾曼當作客人 而不是人質 實際上是他親自招募了我。大多數(shù)黑人學生--他在黑人學生中很受歡迎。他參與了招生工作。他的外聯(lián)工作也做得很多，也許比其他任何院長都要多。所以他在那里是很諷刺的。一旦我們奪取了大樓的控制權，我們就不再需要他了，我們邀請他離開--這也是因為法學院里有幾個黑人學生。他們說，"你不應該提'綁架' 和'人質'這樣的詞。"

AMY?GOODMAN:?And did the white students leave, by the way, and take over other buildings?

順便問一下，白人學生離開后，有沒有占領其他建筑？

RAYMOND?BROWN:?They did leave, in response to a polite but firm request. The black students met that first night. You couldn’t have black students effectively sitting cheek by jowl with the white students, who were everybody from Leninists and SDSers to kids who wanted to have a teach-in, people who were sort of countercultural folks. We couldn’t have maintained it. We were disciplined and coherent. We knew each other well. And we were clear about the fact that this was not a revolution, but a demonstration, and that ultimately force would be used against us. And so, we were very firm on those issues.

他們確實離開了，在禮貌但堅定的要求下離開了。黑人學生第一天晚上就開會了。你不能讓黑人學生和白人學生坐在一起，因為白人學生中既有列寧主義者，也有社會民主黨人，還有那些想參加教學活動的孩子們，還有那些反文化的人。我們根本無法維持 我們紀律嚴明，步調一致 我們很了解彼此。我們很清楚，這不是一場革命，而是一次示威游行，最終會用武力來對付我們。因此，我們在這些問題上非常堅定。

AMY?GOODMAN:?Nancy Biberman, describe what you were doing there that day, April 23rd, 1968.

南希-比伯曼 描述一下1968年4月23日那天 你在那里做什么？

NANCY?BIBERMAN:?So, at noon, we all gathered at the Sundial in the middle of the college campus, and there was a rally. And the rally was about, you know, the ongoing anger at the war in Vietnam and, in particular, our university’s affiliation with research for the war. And we were also very much aware, as Ray said, Dr. King had just died. You know, we were—had been assassinated. You know, we were all in the streets, and I think everyone was in high-tension mode.

And, you know, what we were able to focus on—I mean, symbols are as important as facts sometimes, and in this case, especially, the gym was the most powerful symbol of racism that we could see in our neighborhood. It was right there. It was on a bluff, the proposed gym between the university and Harlem. It was a public park. And it was, you know, designed for students, with a backdoor entrance to the community. It was offensive, and we were all rallying behind that.

中午時分，我們聚集在大學校園中央的日晷廣場舉行集會。集會的主題是，你知道，人們對越戰(zhàn)的持續(xù)憤怒，尤其是我們大學與越戰(zhàn)研究的關系。我們也非常清楚，正如雷所說，金博士剛剛去世。你知道，被暗殺了。我們都在街上 我想每個人都處于緊張狀態(tài)

你知道，我們能夠關注的是--我的意思是，象征有時和事實一樣重要，尤其是在這種情況下，體育館是我們在鄰里間能看到的種族主義最有力的象征。它就在那里。它就在懸崖上，擬建的體育館位于大學和哈萊姆區(qū)之間。這是一個公共公園。你知道，它是為學生設計的，有一個后門通向社區(qū)。這很令人反感 我們都很支持這一點

AMY?GOODMAN:?And the role of women?

女性的角色呢？

NANCY?BIBERMAN:?So, the role of women is more complicated. I would like to say, however, for a couple of my sisters who are listening out there, that two women were the ones to yell, after we couldn’t get into Low Library, having just run from the Sundial, “To the gym!” Two women said, “To the gym.” And it was from that moment that we all ran to the gym and, you know, jumped into the bulldozers.

女性的角色比較復雜。不過，我想說的是，我的幾個姐妹正在外面聽著呢 在我們無法進入低區(qū)圖書館之后，有兩個女人喊道："去健身房！" 兩個女人說 "去體育館" 就在那一刻，我們都跑向了體育館 然后，你知道，跳進了推土機里。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?I’d like to ask Mark Rudd to step in. Mark, your name is probably most associated with the Columbia strike of all of the protesters, yet today, in today’s?The New York Times, you attempt to try to correct the history or the narrative that has developed over the decades.

我想請馬克-陸克文發(fā)言。馬克，在所有的抗議者中，你的名字可能與哥倫比亞大學的罷工聯(lián)系最為密切，然而今天，在今天的《紐約時報》上，你試圖糾正幾十年來形成的歷史或敘述。

MARK?RUDD:?Right. There’s a lot to be said, of course, about the Columbia strike, but that point that the leadership of the black students has got to be made. It’s relevant today because too often the narrative of contemporary struggles focuses on the white kids. Well, it’s going to be—this particular movement that we have now, or movements, are being led by women and also by nonwhite people. So, this is a good time to look back and see what relevant history there is.

對 當然，關于哥倫比亞大學的罷課事件還有很多值得討論的地方，但黑人學生的領導力這一點必須要提出來。這一點在今天很有意義，因為人們對當代抗爭的敘述往往集中在白人孩子身上。我們現(xiàn)在的這場運動，或者說這些運動，都是由女性和非白人領導的。因此，現(xiàn)在正是回顧歷史的好時機。

RAYMOND?BROWN:?I think it’s important to point out that Mark and some of the leaders have been not only historically accurate, but gracious, in the last decade, in saying, “Look, there was a misperception as to how this happened at the time.” Mark asked me to speak at his book launch. Bill Sales and other black students like myself get calls from the media: Mark Rudd said you should talk to you instead of him. So, there has been a recognition by some leadership. But that hasn’t taken away the tension that still exists at a number of events on the part of white students who feel they were expelled improperly from Hamilton Hall, a very interesting kind of tension.

我認為有必要指出的是，馬克和一些領導者在過去十年中不僅在歷史上是準確的，而且還很親切地說："聽著，當時人們對這件事的發(fā)生有一種誤解。馬克邀請我在他的新書發(fā)布會上發(fā)言。比爾-塞爾斯和其他像我一樣的黑人學生接到了媒體的電話： 馬克-陸克文說，你們應該找你，而不是找他。因此，一些領導層已經認識到了這一點。但這并沒有消除白人學生在一些活動中仍然存在的緊張情緒，他們認為自己被漢密爾頓大廳不當驅逐，這是一種非常有趣的緊張情緒。

AMY?GOODMAN:?I wanted to turn to this clip from the?Columbia Revolt, the film. This is H. Rap Brown, now Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin, reading a statement from black students who occupied Hamilton Hall during the 1968 strike.

我想看一下《哥倫比亞的反叛》這部電影的片段。這是H-拉普-布朗（H. Rap Brown），現(xiàn)在是賈米爾-阿卜杜拉-阿明（Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin），在宣讀1968年罷課期間占領漢密爾頓大廳的黑人學生的聲明。

H.?RAP?BROWN:?The black students of Columbia University, joined by a few members of the black community, have been in Hamilton Hall for 56 hours—more than that now. We have established a cafeteria with adequate stores, all continuously. A physician is in charge of our infirmary. Morale is high.

H.?RAP?BROWN:?哥倫比亞大學的黑人學生在黑人社區(qū)一些成員的幫助下，已經在漢密爾頓大廳待了 56 個小時--現(xiàn)在已經超過 56 個小時了。我們建立了一個食堂，有充足的食物，而且一直在供應。我們的醫(yī)務室由一名醫(yī)生負責。士氣高昂。

AMY?GOODMAN:?Again, that was H. Rap Brown, now Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin. But that’s back in 1968. Protesters who barricaded Hamilton Hall renamed it Malcolm X University, Ray?

那是H-拉普-布朗，現(xiàn)在是賈米爾-阿卜杜拉-阿明。但那要追溯到1968年?？棺h者將漢密爾頓大廳改名為馬爾科姆?X大學，雷？

RAYMOND?BROWN:?That’s true. We were very self-conscious about our role politically and that we represented a larger community. Many of us had been involved in the movement over the years. That statement was written by the Black Students of Hamilton Hall. Stokely Carmichael and Basil Paterson and other members of the Democratic political establishment came through, along with many community organizers, who said, “We’ll do whatever you want, and we’ll help foster this notion that the community really cares and is connected to you.” And so, it’s important to understand that organic connection, as well, as an important part of this uprising, one that, again, wasn’t reported or covered very accurately at the time by the mainstream media.

沒錯。我們非常清楚自己在政治上的角色，我們代表著一個更大的群體。多年來，我們中的許多人都參與了這場運動。那份聲明是由漢密爾頓大廳的黑人學生寫的。斯托克利-卡邁克爾、巴西爾-帕特森和民主黨政治機構的其他成員，以及許多社區(qū)組織者都來了，他們說："我們會做你們想做的任何事情，我們會幫助培養(yǎng)這樣一種觀念，即社區(qū)真正關心你們，并與你們息息相關。" 因此，理解這種有機聯(lián)系也很重要，它是這場起義的重要組成部分，而主流媒體當時并沒有對此進行準確報道。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?I’d like to bring Paul into this discussion. You’ve been—you’ve spent the last, what, 10 years of your life working on a project, both a book on the Columbia strike and this 7-hour marathon film that you’ve developed, and yet you’re a British national, right, originally?

我想請保羅參與討論。在過去的10年里，你一直在從事一個項目，既寫了一本關于哥倫比亞大罷工的書，又拍攝了這部7小時的馬拉松電影，但你原本是英國人，對嗎？

PAUL?CRONIN:?No, actually, I’m American, too. My mother is—my mother is American.

不，實際上，我也是美國人。我母親是美國人。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?Oh, OK.

哦，好吧。

PAUL?CRONIN:?So I grew up in a Mid-Atlantic household in London, it’s true, yes.

所以我是在倫敦的一個大西洋中部家庭長大的，是的，沒錯。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?Oh, OK. But tell us why you decided to do this, why you spent so much of your life on this.

哦，好的。但請告訴我們您為什么決定做這個，為什么要花費這么多時間在這個上面。

PAUL?CRONIN:?Well, the bottom line is, it’s just a fascinating story. And it’s not as if anyone had revisited it in any detail since 1968. Some Ph.D. student had not come along and pulled all the material together. I was—I knew there are plenty of people around from '68 who would be able to talk. The fact is, Columbia University was full of very smart people, very articulate people. And I've met some extraordinarily articulate people over the years. Also, the massive raw primary material that’s come to light—I have generated an archive of 30,000 photographs, most of which have never been seen before, thousands of pages of documents. So, it’s just been a fascinating story to tell. It’s a very dramatic story. I mean, the interplay between the black students and the white students, between the faculty and the students. I mean, any number of dynamics at play here make it a very interesting and dramatic story.

嗯，最重要的是，這是個引人入勝的故事。自 1968 年以來，沒有人再詳細研究過這個故事。還沒有哪個博士生把所有的材料都整理出來。我--我知道周圍有很多68年出生的人，他們可以談談。事實上，哥倫比亞大學有很多非常聰明、能言善辯的人。多年來，我也遇到過一些特別能說會道的人。此外，我還獲得了大量的原始資料--我制作了一個包含 3 萬張照片的檔案，其中大部分從未見過，還有數(shù)千頁的文件。因此，這是一個引人入勝的故事。這是一個非常戲劇性的故事。我的意思是，黑人學生和白人學生之間，教師和學生之間的相互作用。我的意思是，在這里發(fā)揮的任何動態(tài)數(shù)量 使其成為一個非常有趣和戲劇性的故事。

AMY?GOODMAN:?And you did—

你做了什么？

RAYMOND?BROWN:?Paul is too modest. I mean, his ERICs have been Homeric. I mean, this guy spent 10 years talking to people, interviewing hundreds of people. And he’s, I suppose, one person who’s tried to really look deeply into what really happened.

保羅太謙虛了 我的意思是，他的ERIC是荷馬史詩。我是說，這家伙花了10年時間與人交談，采訪了數(shù)百人。我想，他是一個試圖深入調查真相的人

AMY?GOODMAN:?It’s the?Shoah?of protest films at university college campuses. It’s seven hours, right?

這是大學校園抗議電影中的浩劫。有七個小時，對吧？

PAUL?CRONIN:?It is seven hours. It’s also the?Rashomon, as Ray pointed out the other day to me. I interviewed 700 people on film for this project.

是七個小時。它也是羅生門，正如雷前幾天向我指出的那樣。為了這個項目，我用電影采訪了700個人。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?But you also interviewed police who participated in the attacks—

但你也采訪了參與襲擊的警察。

PAUL?CRONIN:?Well, right.

保羅-克羅寧：嗯，沒錯。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?—city officials and—

市政官員和

PAUL?CRONIN:?Police. I mean, there’s any number of so many different constituencies here at play, each one of which are at odds with the other. So, frankly, you can sort of—you could focus the entire story in the mayor’s office, for example, or in the police department. But even within the police department, for example, there’s an interplay going on between the beat cops, the cops on the beat up in Morningside—

警察 我的意思是，這里有許多不同的選區(qū)在起作用，每個選區(qū)都相互矛盾。所以，坦率地說，你可以把整個故事集中在市長辦公室或警察局。但即使是在警察局內部，比如說 在晨邊巡邏的警察之間，也存在著相互作用

AMY?GOODMAN:?Morningside Heights.

晨邊高地。

PAUL?CRONIN:?—Morningside Heights, and, say, the?TPF, the Tactical Patrol Force, which was this elite group of cops who were in existence, I think, from ’59 to 1984. And by ’68, they were sort of at the peak of their powers. They were sort of parachuted in to hotspots around the city. So, the beat cops were not terribly happy to have these guys on their turf. So, any number of these interactions creates interesting stories and interesting drama.

晨邊高地，TPF，即戰(zhàn)術巡邏部隊，是一個由警察組成的精英團隊，我認為從59年到1984年一直存在。到了1968年，他們的力量達到了頂峰。他們被空降到城市的熱點地區(qū) 所以，巡警們并不太樂意這些家伙出現(xiàn)在他們的地盤上。因此，這些互動創(chuàng)造了有趣的故事和有趣的戲劇。

AMY?GOODMAN:?Let’s go to a clip of your film, Paul Cronin,?A Time to Stir. Here, former Columbia students who participated in the protests recall a key moment during which students take down a fence.

這里，參加過抗議活動的前哥倫比亞大學學生回憶了一個關鍵時刻，學生們推倒了圍欄。

FORMER?COLUMBIA?STUDENT?1:?It was a deeply symbolic moment, because on this side of the fence is legality, politeness—I am part of the establishment, expressing my opinion—and on the other side of this very humble chicken-wire fence is trespass, the realization that we are called upon to do more than simply express our opinions.

前哥倫布學生 1：這是一個極具象征意義的時刻，因為在柵欄的這一邊是合法性、政治性--我是建制派的一員，我在表達我的觀點；而在這道非常簡陋的雞絲柵欄的另一邊則是侵犯，我們意識到我們需要做的不僅僅是表達我們的觀點。

FORMER?COLUMBIA?STUDENT?2:?I remember them pushing. I remember them feeling that finally they could grab the fence, but also grab history, grab the world, change it.

前哥倫比亞大學學生 2：我記得他們在推動。我記得他們覺得終于可以抓住柵欄，同時也抓住了歷史，抓住了世界，改變了世界。

AMY?GOODMAN:?And talk about what that fence was, Juan.

阿米-古德曼：胡安，談談那道柵欄是什么？

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?Well, that was the fence that was erected at the construction site for the new gymnasium. And, actually, I had been arrested trying—in protesting in that construction site a couple of months before the actual Columbia protests erupted, when there were some community protests. And so, that fence was sort of the symbol of this new gym going up. And there had been various protests at the fence, at the construction site itself. So, when some of the students began to tear down the fence that day, that was sort of a symbol of, “OK, you’re not going to hold us back anymore. We’re dealing with this issue.”

胡安-岡薩雷斯：嗯，那是新體育館施工現(xiàn)場豎起的圍欄。事實上，在哥倫比亞抗議活動爆發(fā)前幾個月，我就曾因在工地抗議而被捕，當時有一些社區(qū)抗議活動。因此，那道柵欄就成了新體育館拔地而起的象征。在圍墻和施工現(xiàn)場都曾發(fā)生過各種抗議活動。因此，當那天一些學生開始拆除圍欄時，這就象征著 "好了，你們再也不能阻擋我們了。我們要解決這個問題。"

PAUL?CRONIN:?And what my film tries to do, and I think—I mean, Mark is very good on this. I know Mark can speak to this. But the film is seven hours, in part, because April 23rd, 1968, 50 years to this day, doesn’t come in until two hours in. I mean, there’s a whole back story to 1968. And I’ve been reading, in the last two or three days, the very brief newspaper summaries of events. And they—I mean, to say they barely scratch the surface is self-evident. There’s an extraordinarily interesting story—in a way, even more interesting than what happened in '68—the story of the founding of?SDS?on the Columbia campus, the founding of?SAS, Student Afro-American Society, on campus, the growing organizing, the antiwar activism that's going on. It brings together extraordinarily interesting people.

保爾-克羅寧：我的電影試圖做的，我認為--我的意思是，馬克在這方面非常出色。我知道馬克能說到這一點。但這部電影長達七個小時，部分原因是 1968 年 4 月 23 日，也就是 50 年后的今天，直到兩個小時后才出現(xiàn)。我的意思是，1968年有一個完整的背景故事。在過去的兩三天里，我一直在閱讀報紙上對事件的簡要報道。它們--我是說，說它們勉強觸及表面是不言而喻的。這其中有一個非常有趣的故事--從某種程度上說，甚至比 68 年發(fā)生的事情更有趣--即 SDS 在哥倫比亞大學校園內成立的故事，SAS（非裔美國人學生協(xié)會）在校園內成立的故事，不斷發(fā)展的組織活動，以及正在進行的反戰(zhàn)活動。它匯集了非常有趣的人物。

RAYMOND?BROWN:?There’s an interesting part of this—

這其中有一個有趣的部分--

AMY?GOODMAN:?Ray Brown.

雷?布朗

RAYMOND?BROWN:?—that young people especially don’t understand. 1964 is 10 years after?Brown v. Board of Education, nine years after Emmett Till, nine years after Bandung. We were very conscious of the fact that the university was kind of saying, “Well, maybe if white supremacy isn’t the thing anymore, we’ve got to have some brown students here.” Their mistake was in assuming that brown students were white students with brown skin, and not engaging with us on the issues that we brought to this reality. But this is, really, shortly after the government, through the courts, have said, “Well, white supremacy isn’t hip anymore, because we’ve got to persuade the rest of the people in the brown world that we’re really better than the communists.” So, that’s the context in which this all took place.

年輕人尤其不理解這一點。1964 年是布朗訴教育委員會案 10 年后，埃米特-提爾案 9 年后，萬隆案 9 年后。我們非常清楚地意識到，大學當時是在說 "好吧，如果白人至上不再是主流 我們得讓一些棕色人種的學生來這里" 他們的錯誤在于認為棕色學生就是棕色皮膚的白人學生 而沒有就我們帶來的問題與我們接觸 但實際上，這是在政府通過法院表示 "白人至上不再時髦了 "之后不久的事 因為我們必須說服棕色世界里的其他人 我們真的比共產主義者更共產主義 這就是這一切發(fā)生的背景

AMY?GOODMAN:?So, how many black students were at Columbia in 1968?

1968年哥倫比亞大學有多少黑人學生？

RAYMOND?BROWN:?My class, which came in in ’64, the class of ’68, had 20 students—biggest class they had ever had in the college.

雷蒙德-布朗：我所在的班級是 64 年的 68 班，有 20 名學生，是學院有史以來人數(shù)最多的一個班。

AMY?GOODMAN:?How many students were there at the college?

艾米-古德曼：當時學院有多少學生？

RAYMOND?BROWN:?About 2,600, I think. So, it was tiny, minuscule. By the time of the demonstrations, we had maybe a hundred, although there were some graduate students thrown in the mix.

雷蒙德-布朗：大約 2600 人吧。所以，它很小，微不足道。到示威游行的時候，我們大概有一百多人，不過也有一些研究生。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?And the same was true of Latinos. I think I was one of only two Latinos in my class, in my class at Columbia, and the same thing, class of ’68.

拉美人也是如此。我想我是班上僅有的兩名拉丁裔學生之一，我在哥倫比亞大學的班上也是如此，68屆也是如此。

AMY?GOODMAN:?And your year was?

你那一屆是？

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?I was class of '68. And there weren't even enough Latinos to have an organization back then.

我是68屆的。那時甚至還沒有足夠的拉美人組織。

AMY?GOODMAN:?Well, Juan, let’s go back to you, 50 years ago. This is?Democracy Now!’s own Juan González speaking during the strike.

好吧，胡安，讓我們回到50年前的你。這是胡安-岡薩雷斯在罷工期間的發(fā)言。

JUAN?GONZáLEZ:?Now we want to go into the dorms with all of you, with some of you who may not—who may not agree with a lot of what we’ve been saying here, who have questions, who support us, who want to know more. Let’s go to the dorms. Let’s talk quietly, in small groups. We’ll be there, and everyone in Livingston—in Livingston lobby, in Furnald lobby, in Carman lobby. We’ll be there, and we’ll talk about the issues involved, and we’ll talk about where this country is going and where this university is going and what it’s doing in the society and what we would like you to do and what we would—and how we would like to exchange with you our ideas over it. Come join us now.

胡安-岡薩雷斯：現(xiàn)在，我們想和你們所有人一起走進宿舍，和你們中的一些人一起，他們可能不同意我們在這里所說的很多話，他們有疑問，他們支持我們，他們想知道更多。讓我們去宿舍。讓我們以小組為單位，靜靜地談談。我們會在那里，在利文斯頓的每個人，在利文斯頓大廳，在弗納德大廳，在卡曼大廳。我們會在那里討論相關問題，討論這個國家將走向何方，這所大學將走向何方，這所大學在社會上做了什么，我們希望你們做什么，我們會做什么，我們希望如何與你們交流我們的想法?，F(xiàn)在就加入我們吧。

AMY?GOODMAN:?So, Mark Rudd, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where you live now, this whole idea, as Juan is announcing the teach-ins, the different places to have discussions during the strike, talk more about this, and talk about your being head of?SDS, the Students for a Democratic Society.

阿米-古德曼：那么，馬克-魯?shù)?，在新墨西哥州的阿爾伯克基，你現(xiàn)在住的地方，這整個想法，胡安正在宣布teach-ins，在罷工期間進行討論的不同地方，談談更多關于這一點，并談談你是SDS，學生民主社會的負責人。

MARK?RUDD:?Well, first of all, I just want to say how exciting it is to be on with my old comrades. I wish I were present with you in the studio.

The couple of things that occur to me in regard to the conversation we’re having at the moment is that the university was not prepared for the black students. Ray and other people have written about this. And I’d like to hear more from Ray about that, about the ways in which the university failed the black students. And I think probably most of us white kids, too, failed the black students. So, let’s talk about that.

But I just wanted to say that the story of any action, any protest, usually goes way back. And in this particular case, it has to do with, in part, years of organizing that?SDS?engaged in. When I got there in September of '65, what became?SDS, the students who became, who formed?SDS, had already been organizing against the university's racism, in the form of the university refusing to allow black and Latino cafeteria workers to form a union—it was clear racism—and also the university’s involvement in the war, which had just began, in April and—well, with main force troops. The university was training naval officers.

So, the organizing, meaning the education and our self-education and our educating the campus and a number of tactics, like confrontations and petitions and meetings and teach-ins, all these things had been going on for a long time. That’s what I mean about organizing, that we had goals, and we had a strategy and tactics to achieve those goals. In the case of?SDS, the goals were to politicize the university and to build the antiwar and anti-racist movements. So, that was going on well before I got there in ’65. And in a sense, we helped lay the groundwork for ’68.

馬克-魯?shù)拢菏紫?，我想說的是，能和我的老戰(zhàn)友們在一起是多么令人激動。我真希望能和你們一起坐在演播室里。

關于我們此刻的談話，我想到的幾件事是，大學沒有為黑人學生做好準備。雷和其他人都寫過這方面的文章。我想從雷那里聽到更多關于這一點，關于大學辜負黑人學生的方式。我想，我們大多數(shù)白人孩子可能也辜負了黑人學生。所以，讓我們來談談這個問題。

但我只想說，任何行動、任何抗議的故事，通常都要追溯到很久以前。在這種特殊的情況下，它有 做，在一定程度上，多年的組織 SDS從事。當我在65年9月到達那里時，SDS的學生們已經組織起來，反對大學的種族主義，大學拒絕讓黑人和拉丁裔食堂工人成立工會，這是明顯的種族主義，而且大學還參與了戰(zhàn)爭，戰(zhàn)爭剛剛開始，在四月，主力部隊。大學正在培訓海軍軍官。

因此，組織工作，即教育、我們的自我教育、我們對校園的教育以及一系列策略，如對抗、請愿、會議和教學活動，所有這些事情已經持續(xù)了很長時間。這就是我所說的組織，我們有目標，我們有實現(xiàn)這些目標的戰(zhàn)略和戰(zhàn)術。就 SDS 而言，我們的目標是將大學政治化，開展反戰(zhàn)和反種族主義運動。所以，這在我65年到達那里之前就已經開始了。從某種意義上說，我們?yōu)?68 年的運動奠定了基礎。

AMY?GOODMAN:?Well, Mark, we’re going to break and—

馬克，我們休息一下

MARK?RUDD:?The great civil rights organizer and leader, Ella Jo Baker, has often talked about—often talked about doing the spadework. Well, we did that spadework. So, that’s a story, I think, is worth telling, because it’s got to be done now. That organizing, strategic organizing, is the issue.

偉大的民權組織者和領導者艾拉-喬-貝克經常談到--經常談到要做大量的工作。我們就做了這些工作。因此，我認為這是一個值得講述的故事，因為現(xiàn)在就得做。組織起來，戰(zhàn)略性地組織起來，這才是問題所在。

AMY?GOODMAN:?Mark Rudd was the head of?SDS?in 1968, on this day 50 years ago, April 23rd, 1968, the Colombia revolt, when African-American students led white students of?SDS, Juan González, one of maybe two Latino students, Nancy Biberman, all in Hamilton Hall, what they called Malcolm X University. When we come back, where this all led, one of the largest mass arrests a week later, 700 people. Again, this is the period between the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King and the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy. Also joined by Paul Cronin, who’s chronicled this all in a book,?A Time to Stir: Columbia ’68. Stay with us.

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馬克-魯?shù)率?968年SDS的負責人，在50年前的今天，1968年4月23日，哥倫比亞起義，當時非裔美國學生領導SDS的白人學生，胡安-岡薩雷斯，可能是兩個拉丁裔學生之一，南希-比伯曼，都在漢密爾頓大廳，他們稱之為馬爾科姆-X大學。當我們回來時，這一切都導致了一周后最大規(guī)模的一次逮捕，有700人。同樣，這也是馬丁-路德-金博士遇刺和羅伯特-肯尼迪遇刺之間的時期。保羅-克羅寧（Paul Cronin）也參與了報道，他在一本名為《騷動的時刻：68年的哥倫比亞》的書中記錄了這一切。請繼續(xù)收看

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